Welcome to Revenue Speaks, where communication becomes growth. I'm Sheila Johnston, founder and CEO of Luminari Partners. This show is produced in partnership with Page Design Group, where together we align strategy, brand, and digital to drive growth, Revenue Speaks explores how strategic communication aligns leadership and drives measurable revenue. Because communication is an overhead, it's infrastructure, and in the end, Revenue Speaks. Hi, Greg. Thank you for being on the Revenue Speaks podcast. Glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

For our guests that don't know who you are, who are you, and how did you find the association world?

Okay, interesting. Greg Wilson, born and raised in California, and I fell into association management somewhat by accident. Probably most people have that answer. I was working for nonprofits, traditional C threes, and you know, looking for a little bit of greater autonomy. You know, more money, of course. You know, and a larger challenge. This was at the tail end of one of my master's degrees, and a classmate of mine suggested that I look up this organization called CalSAE, which published a lot of jobs in association management, which turned out to be similar to the nonprofits I was working for, C threes, but they were mostly C sixes. So found a really great job at a c6 and really have never left. I've been working for associations now for just under 30 years.

Well, congratulations! I mean, you and I go way back as well, and we do, right? I want to mention you have two masters, but I know you for having one of those two masters. We went to graduate school together. That's correct, Sac State, Sac State MPPA, or Masters in Public Policy and Administration. I love that our program, obviously having taken it here in Sacramento, has opened up a network of organizations that are mission-driven, are focused on members, yes, and is the perfect intersection of policy and governance and administration.

Right, right.

How have you found that your graduate degree has helped you in managing associations?

Oh, you know, just extremely, you know, mostly what I remember are things like the CAM analysis, you know, the criterion alternative matrix, you know, and cost benefit analysis, but also policy windows and you know what's called the Overton window, just the principles that we learn about in those policy classes and the administrative classes, while we think about governments and politics, associations really are political organizations, and so a lot of those principles still do apply. You know, to my job as an executive director, right?

Now, one of the policies we talk about on the show here is really communications, and not necessarily communications in the sense of you and I having a conversation, but communications by way of culture, by way of infrastructure, even sales to that degree. And I always like to let people know that I feel that revenue, on the other hand, isn't always something tangible. It can be something that is intangible or serves some intangible benefits that are the precursor to tangible revenue in an organization's overall success. You've had a couple of different roles in associations, and your current role is serving associations in an interim capacity. Correct. So I'd love for you to tell our viewers how you assess the state of communications when you are serving interim capacity role.

It's a good question. A big part of my job as an interim executive, which are very short term, and I move around, you know, from industry to industry, as an association might need temporary executive help. So, big part of that job is to assess the organization. You know, mostly from an operational standpoint. You know, but also governance. You know, strategy. You know, finances and regulatory compliance. So, I would say when I'm assessing the communication portion, I'm looking at what's being sent out to whom you know. So, trying to define what we call the publics membership is a public, but so is non-members. That's a different public. The executive committee, or even committees, or maybe expanding that to, you know, volunteers of the association could be another public. Does the association segment those publics, you know, and send messaging that resonates with each of those groups, or is it just sort of like shotgun, and everybody kind of gets the same thing, you know, without respect to who they are and how they're engaged with the organization or what their interests or or desires of membership might be. Also looking at the tools, so you know, are we sending things directly out of Outlook, you know, or an email program, or are we using something a little bit more robust, you know, like Constant Contact or Mailchimp or something like that, which helps with some of those other things. And then I'm also looking at the language that's used, making sure that what is going out is not necessarily, unless it needs to be written from an association perspective, but from a member perspective. And what I mean by association is the staff, right? So my jargon, my way of thinking, certainly is colored in the fact that I am staff of an association, and so I see the world kind of from that lens. I'm not a realtor. I'm not a CPA. I'm not an attorney, but those professions have different ways of talking, different cadences, you know, different grammars, and so we want to make sure that we're writing in a way that resonates with them when they're reading it, so it feels that they're reading something that connects with them,

right? Like the brand equity story, right? Sure, it builds trust. How have you experienced an organization turning around when you do those assessments of the public, as you called them?

It's really fun to watch organizations turn around after those assessments. It takes a level of awareness of the staff and the senior volunteers, a desire to change, and a sense of curiosity as well. But if you have those three qualities-if there's curiosity, if there's awareness, and if there's a desire to change-you know, then it's really magical to see things shift, if there's no curiosity or if there's no willingness change, then it's frustrating. You feel like you're just swimming up against the current, the culture of the organization is just pulling you back and sending you back towards the waterfall. Maybe

very true. Now, when you are doing those assessments, how much board buy-in do you usually receive, or is there some level of education or value proposition?

Absolutely. So the board is involved very early when I do my assessments. One of the activities that I'm doing is individual communications with individual board members, and while not purely appreciative inquiry, I'm using some of those principles, you know. So the conversations are not simply to get information, you know, but to plant ideas and fan the fire of curiosity, you know. And so I'm asking questions and engaging them in a way that helps me understand how things are going, but also helps them understand that there's another way, or there's you know possible other universes that we can explore. So it's very much two way. And then I try to do that with the staff as well, you know, to help them understand that here's what you're doing, but there's this other idea over here. Have you possibly thought about it, and if not, why not?

So you're in a unique situation where you come into organizations and you maybe help stabilize or position for growth and for future success. So I can imagine there's some sort of instability that has either occurred and you're now stabilizing, and then you're also building trust and making an organization potentially more attractive for your successor. I suspect. Right. So I want to focus in on the middle part for now. You're well into your interim executive program with your associations, and the the staff is getting to trust you. How have you intertwined a positive communications culture by way of external communications and internal communications to help the staff just put them at ease to inspire them. Where have you seen culture shift because of the infrastructure you are promoting?

I think that culture is really hard to change. Where I have introduced changes to processes, operations, policies, very rarely to the bylaws, because I try not to make too big of a change when I'm there as an interim. I'm temporary. It's been on the fringes, which really doesn't shift culture greatly. Mostly, what I find is a lack of curiosity in the associations that I go into. I think if I was going to wish for one change, generally in associations, it would be like let's all be a little bit more curious, you know, about things, ask more questions. But as I introduce changes, what I do see is a positive shift, typically in the staff and the senior volunteers, that there's a brighter future. You spoke about you know creating an organization that's more attractive to my successor. That's part of it. That this is an organization that has a bright future. You know that has an impactful future. Hopefully. People want to be involved in it, not just staff, but volunteers as well.

Very true. Focusing a little bit more on the culture of communications specifically, have you been able to help staff see their own organization differently by way of the shifts that you've implemented yourself and taught others?

Oh, sure. Yeah. So going back to what I was talking about earlier, which is you know my default setting is as an association executive, and so how I speak and the words I use are colored by that background, by those 30 years, right? But the members often don't understand what an association is, and so don't have that jargon, and we have to be able to communicate in ways that make sense to them. One of the really big shifts that I see quite frequently in staff that I supervise is the sense that the association is not us; it's not the staff. The association exists for the members, by the members. Only the members really have any say or standing in really what's going on. And when we talk about shifting the grammar, the language, the vocabulary, the cadence of the communication that's going out-typically written, but increasingly video and oral. That's when staff really start to realize that it's really for and about the members. When we get them to think about how we're saying something in an email that will resonate with the members and not just you know this is how we understand it. That's when that shift really happens is that oh this is really about them, this is really for them, and it's not just about me.

I love that you're focused so much on the value proposition and communications. It does so much more than just land in an inbox or show up on your social. Well, it should if we're doing it well. If you're doing it well, that's correct. Yeah, but even going backwards, when you're looking at a possible interim position with associations, what are you looking for? How do you assess those opportunities by way of how they're communicating with you? The

opportunities are actually relatively rare, so it's not like I have a lot to choose from, right? But I'm looking for an organization where I think I can have an impact. Where I think I can have the biggest impact is boards, executive committees, and associations that don't quite understand that they're an association, that they exist for the members to come together. If I see an organization that you know lacks that sort of understanding. I'm really attracted to it. I really want to get in there and start talking to them and start providing some professional development, if you will, to the board and the executive committee about what an association is and that they really should be in communication with each other, figuring things out together. That's really attractive to me.

The reason I ask you this question, Greg, is because one of your communication strategies that I find a lot of benefits from is your blog, and because you are intertwined in the communications culture of an organization that you are working with, you've provided some great insight into how boards can perhaps shift their thinking, and how executives like ourselves that are either in associations working or supporting them can also provide the most value to organizations. And one of the blogs that you recently wrote caught my eye, and it was CEO or executive director, you did a study on that, and I'd love for you to explain to our viewers how there's power in the words that you choose, and there's power in how you're setting your organization up for success.

Sure, sure, yeah. So real briefly, I don't know that I would call it a study. Yeah, I think I probably wrote it in a sense, you know, or maybe gave the impression that I was out there doing some sort of research. But really, all I did was download 40 or 50,000 electronic records from the IRS, which is publicly available, right? And then scanned for who's signing that tax return on behalf of the organization, and counting the times that the title was CEO versus how many times it was executive director, and then doing some cross tabs, you know, and so looking at those counts based on organizational size, the type of tax status, so c6 versus c3 and a few things like this, and so generally, what I found, as I recall, the smaller C threes tend to use CEO a little more frequently than the smaller C sixes that tend to use executive director, but that both organizations, as they grow in size, measured. Revenue.

Sure. The

larger the organization, the more likely the chief executive is using the title as CEO.

Okay.

And so my hypothesis, and and basically what I'm supposing from this data, you know, was that that title of CEO comes with a a sort of cloak of greater executiveness than the title of executive director does. It's seen more powerful, more in charge, and a little bit more broader. And that the smaller organizations that are using that title are probably doing so in a way to provide a sense of support to the external world of who their executive is. You know that this is an important person, somebody that should be trusted, that should be listened to, particularly in the C threes, because what's different about the C threes is the funding, right?

Right.

The C threes rely on donations, whereas C sixes rely typically on member dues and you know what we call non dues revenue, which still comes from the members. You know, so it's still just member dues, but in a different form. That's a different podcast, and so in order to build that trust, then you know you don't want to talk to somebody who isn't seen as in charge, isn't seen as you know having an outsized role in the organization, you want to be talking to the CEO, and then that's part of why you know that title is used. And as I'm saying this, I'm realizing I actually don't think I put that in the blog post.

I don't think you did. No, I think the blog post was

simply just reporting on the numbers, right? Yeah,

you reported on the numbers, but you also focused in on some of the qualities of what typically a CEO might be charged with, or meaning a visionary or an executive director might be more day-to-day operations.

Yeah, I do find that. So you know, again, the smaller the organization, the more likely the chief staff executive, whatever the title might be, is going to be involved in really discreet, nitty gritty operational, administrative work. Right? I mean, it makes sense. If a nonprofit has a single employee, then that single employee is going to have to do everything. Everything. You know, from checking the mail, you know, to processing the bookkeeping, engaging with the board, sending the emails out. As the organization grows, then it's less necessary that the chief stock executive do those administrative things, and be more capable of making sure they get done through others. And I think that's probably why you see the term of chief executive officer more frequently in the larger organizations, because I think that term CEO reflects that sort of get work done through others management style versus executive director, which I think comes with a sort of feeling of hands-on work,

this is absolutely fascinating to me. CEO, executive director. I'd love your thoughts on how intentional boards should be if they're not about choosing what title they hire for or would like on their team.

I think they should be intentional. So, as an interim executive, I am typically supporting the board in hiring my successor. You know, so the next permanent executive. Although I don't like saying permanent because everybody is going to leave eventually, right? So, the successor executive, an important part of that conversation in preparing to announce the opening and then start collecting resumes and you know thinking about who we want to interview is what's the title of the position. You know, shall we use CEO or executive director? And I typically walk them through a conversation about what it feels like, and I'm asking them, how do they feel about calling their chief staff executive executive director versus CEO? You know, it's not my decision; it's their decision; it's their position; it's their association. You know, but I do want them to put some thought into this, and part of what I try to help them understand is that I think in the association and probably larger nonprofit space, the title of CEO is probably a little bit more attractive than the title of executive director because I do think it comes with a little bit of baggage. I do think it has a little bit of struggling to find right the word, but it you know has some oomph behind it, right? CEO. If they really want to position the position to be attractive to the widest audience, so that they can find the best person, you know, then using the title CEO is probably going to do that. However, it also comes with the presumption that it's a little less. Hands on, and so that's really kind of part of the conversation we're having here. Is that you know if this is somebody who's going to be processing payroll every two weeks, right, or maybe involved in some of the bookkeeping, that might not be CEO,

right,

right, you know. So maybe executive director makes a little bit more sense, right. But but there's a trade-off, right? Yeah,

and it's true because thinking even beyond these two titles of chief executive officer or executive director, titles have the power to change the way an organization functions, and that's an extension of our thesis here on this podcast: is communications as infrastructure. And I'd love for you to talk about how you assess how infrastructure might improve by way of having these conversations internally with teams or with boards.

When it comes to the staff, my assessment approach is typically at an individual level. I also use a lot of personality assessments, like I love

DISC,

you know, and I love the Big Five, you know, and predictive index, things like that. And so, if I have an idea about who somebody is as an employee, and then I notice that title is important to them, we have a conversation about that, and I try to redirect their attention away from their title to how they're supporting the organization and the positive outcomes that members are gaining because of their work and their support to the organization. So I try to I try to redirect staff away from thinking too much about the title, you know, more about like what they're actually doing,

right? And that's an important conversation to have, sure, because it goes back to culture,

sure,

goes back to buy-in, and maybe there has been some sort of misalignment of roles, responsibilities, oh, absolutely, yeah, all

the time.

Now, one of your other blogs had this kind of preposition that I'm suggesting, and that's words matter, titles matter. And when it comes to you handing off the baton after you've finished or about to complete your interim role with an association, you have a different strategy for handing back over the organization. I don't believe you do a binder, or do you do a binder when you? Oh yeah,

no, I do. Binder, okay. Yeah, I do a binder.

You do a binder.

Every organization gets a binder for me. Yeah.

Now, do you cater this binder to the organization, or how are you communicating the state of the organization and your successor should should handle?

Yeah. So the binder is part of the handoff. It's one of the tangible aspects. If I can, I make it red because because I also talking about communication and like making sure that we're sending the right message because I want to kind of draw some importance to it, right? So like you know, first aid kits are red, go bags are red, right? You know, but it also stands out because most binders probably going to be white, maybe blue. Few binders are actually going to be red, right? And so, in an emergency, you know, and I'm kind of really thinking here about like there's a fire, right? If you're going to grab one thing out of the executive director's office, make it that red binder, right? Grab it because that binder will have copies of the latest tax returns, filings with the Secretary of State, the Attorney General. It will have an org chart. It will have job descriptions for all of the employees. It will have, if it fits the last 12 months of board minutes, you know, longer if the minutes are really thin. You know, the strategic plan, all of the really important documents of the association that will tell a third-party external observer what's going on, right? Then it also has a page for passwords and websites, usernames. Those can be encrypted, you know, or it can be simply pointing to on the server where you might find an encrypted file, you know, or describe if it's LastPass or something like that, where you describe how to access some of those passwords. It will also include a multi-page document that describes what's going on in the organization, some of the interpersonal relationships that are important to keep in mind, some of the history and bio of the key volunteers, like board members and executive committee members, but also the major projects, and also some of the items of risk that could come up. You know, one organization tax returns were filed a little late, so when I got there, I had to catch up on the tax returns that warranted a paragraph in in this document that I'm describing that I'm writing. You know that hey, by the way, you know the tax returns were filed late. You know, so if the IRS you know sends a little notice a couple years from now because they're typically behind, you know this is what's going on, and so it's designed for the next executive. Successor to be able to have a ready reference about some of the more important issues or things to keep in mind that they likely will have to deal with.

That's very kind of you, and it's very necessary, right?

I think everybody at an association, whether it's the executive director, you know, or a receptionist or membership person owes this kind of responsibility to their successor. You know, to help the successor be successful, you have to be able to transfer that that knowledge and that information.

Well, you're essentially putting the infrastructure of an organization in a binder. Absolutely right.

Yeah, for sure.

That's invaluable. And how often should this be updated?

Oh, usually I'm creating it because usually there doesn't already exist, you know. And then I suggest at least once or twice a year, you know, not too often, right? Because things don't change that often, really. If the bylaws are updated, throw the updated bylaws in that binder. If the statement of information is updated with the Secretary of State, pull the old SI 100 out and put the new SI 100 in. Right

now, I want to switch for a moment from your perspective as an interim, and I would like you to dream with me. If you were to design a association, how would communications show up in a brand new association poised to succeed, poised to welcome a brand new set of members. What would it look like to you? This

is good. This is good. So first, I'm a cusper, which means you know I was born right in between the boomers and the Gen X, right? Okay. Okay. Yeah, I have qualities of Gen X, and I have qualities of Boomers. When it comes to interacting with people, I'm more boomer. So, my ideal association would involve a lot of in-person interaction rather than asynchronous online Zoom calls, maybe you know, but really for targeted specific purposes. But when it comes to bringing people together and developing a shared vision, you know, and a shared future, that would absolutely be in person, lightly facilitated, you know, so it doesn't turn into a lecture and it doesn't turn into like you know a dry learning situation, but really engage people in conversation. It would involve training them on the difference between dialog versus debate. Right, that dialog is much more open-ended. It's like qualitative analysis, and debate is a little bit more for a purpose. It's more quantitative. We're debating in order to come to a decision, you know. So debate needs to follow dialog. So when we're first forming the association, we're doing a lot more dialog and staying open to the possibility of whatever might be.

Absolutely. I mean, we see this come up. You were, I believe, the genius behind our CEO roundtable for Associations West here in Sacramento. Well, no, let's be

fair. I'm reconstituting an idea. So I participated in CEO roundtable discussions on a monthly basis years ago. Loved them, you know, and felt a need more recently that that kind of thing needed to come back. You know, honestly, we're all kind of tired of Zoom calls. You know, we we had enough during the COVID pandemic. You know, and so I again, this is my boomer. You know, I wanted an in-person gathering, and so I'm just reconstituting something that Calisae did before they changed their names to Association West. You know, and rebranded themselves. So I can't take credit.

Okay,

I did get it started again.

You did, and thank you for that. Yeah, and I bring that up because that table that we sit around is a really great way for executives that are getting ready to start a new association or take a new job at an association. We bounce those ideas off of each other, and most of the answers are: If it were me, I would do this to change that, and those infrastructure conversations are invaluable to our respective abilities to implement success over a long period of time.

Sure,

and it all starts with communication. Starts about with brainstorming, thinking outside the box-it's a beautiful system.

What I really like about those monthly sessions-the 10 or 12 people that are sitting around the table-you know, maybe it's 15 every once in a while. You know, we ask so many questions. I don't know if you've noticed this when you participate, but you know, somebody throws out an idea. You know, I'm struggling with this, whatever it might be, and typically our reaction to everybody else sitting around the table is to ask more questions. Yes, we're not typically going. Oh, do this. You know, there's this exploratory nature of the conversations that we have, and even the questions that get asked are aha moments for. Folks that are sitting around the table.

Yeah, I feel like we've all been able to have more of an impact by communicating. Certainly, we're

all growing.

We are all growing, and we all help each other out. And that's what communications has the power to do: is strengthen and stabilize or grow.

Yes, Greg, it's been really nice having you on the show.

It's been a pleasure.

And before I let you go, because you can't go yet, I always like to ask our guests first draft thinking questions. Okay. You are a very successful leader in the association space, and you've created some pretty incredible impact and inspired many others to follow in your footsteps. These questions are rapid fire. They're meant to be reflection points, so no pressure to answer. Right? We just want to hear what's top of mind for you. So, as an association executive, what is one thing that has become clear over time?

What's becoming clear to me more recently is that we need to provide training and professional development for our replacements. Most of the executive director CEO positions that I help to fill working with a board, the applicants are folks that are already working somewhere as an executive director. There are very few applications from people who are stretching themselves and looking for that next career move up, and I would love to see more deputy directors, divisional department directors apply for CEO executive director jobs, and stretch themselves, you know, into a higher role.

What do you think is stopping them currently?

I haven't talked to very many, but my guess is that there's a dearth, really, of planned professional development programs. I think that we expect executive directors to kind of learn on the job, you know, and that there isn't, you know, sort of formal or even really informal programs where somebody can go through a cohort over the course of say 12 months, you know, to understand what it means to be an executive director of an association.

Right, that's very insightful. As an interim association executive director, what has ended up mattering more than you expected?

Relationships.

Really?

Yes. When a board, or typically a president, or a treasurer, or something like that, reaches out first to me, you know, to talk about the possibility of coming on as an interim, and I start to talk to them via email, and then it turns into a Zoom call, and sometimes there's an in-person meeting. Mostly, what they're looking for is you know a sense of trust that this is somebody who can do the job, right? I'm usually not asking too many questions about what's going on. Right, where do they want the organization to go? I'm usually asking questions about, you know, how do they like to engage with the executive director? Right, it's that relationship piece. It goes back to communication. Ground setting. Yeah, how can they be comfortable that I can help them. It's all about preferences towards phone call, Zoom, email, text message. You know, how can I help them feel at ease that I can actually help them?

Yeah, because I bet by you even asking that question, you're able to help them heal some wounds if there are some.

Sure, and it gives me insight. Interestingly, I had one organization that was a little nervous putting things in email, you know. Which yeah, which was a little odd. Like they almost immediately wanted to go to Zoom calls or phone calls, and I learned later it was because there just was a lot of distrust in the organization, you know, and emails got leaked, you know. They got sent outside the organizations, which was really bad. Don't do that. They were nervous putting things in writing. Right.

Trust should be established early and often. Absolutely right.

Where have you experienced communications making a difference that you didn't previously anticipate?

With me, actually, yeah. How so?

And I'm a boomer. I'm also introverted, and I'm very bookish. You know, I really prefer long form written instead of like quick rap. Like this is making me nervous. Sorry. No, it's fine. And that comes off, I think, to a lot of people as a little cold, as a little disinterested, right? Sure. And so what I've learned, particularly in my supervision of others, is you know to put some of that work aside and approach my direct reports and my coworkers, you know, as people first. You know, talk about sports, talk about the weather, stuff that introverts typically don't like to talk about. I mean, that's a stereotype, right? But to really sort of engage with them as human beings, you know, and as people that have lives outside of work, instead of just immediately going to okay, what's on the docket today? What do we have to get done? Right. Yeah. One of the greatest compliments I ever received was from a former boss, and it was. Obviously pre-COVID, so we were in office five days a week. But he once told me he said, "Oh, I know when Sheila's in the office because she was talking to everyone coming down the hall for the first 30 minutes of the day, right? Social butterfly, good. Yeah, and I loved it.

‍

See, you're the opposite of me, right? So when I got to the office, I went straight to my desk and I got straight to work, right? And I was the CFO of an organization with 100 employees, you know, in 18 locations around California. And so this mentor, Joe Lindercro, basically said, "You need to stop going straight to your office. What you need to do is you need to turn left because my office was to the right. Turn left and go through the entire building and say hi to everybody who's already there first. Before I got to my office, and oh my god, it was the most frustrating thing the first couple times I was doing it because it took me 45 minutes, and I'm like, I just wasted 45 minutes a day, like I could get work done, but I realized that no, then those relationships were so much easier, so much better, right? So much stronger that we got more done in the long term. Yeah,

I love that. Well done for making that change. Do you still do that now? I

do. Right. Whoever's in the office first, I make sure to say hi to them as I'm arriving, and then I've got one ear open, so I hear the door. You know, so if somebody arrives, I make sure. Okay, I'm gonna go say hi to that person because they just got here. They didn't get a hello yet.

It really establishes a deeper foundation for trust. When I used to do that as well at a different office, the team would then start to check on me because I wasn't coming out of my office. I was too busy with things, and they would remind me to eat lunch. Yeah, they would remind me to go home. It's funny they got your back. They got my back. Yeah, it's the little things when it comes to communications. What advice would you give to a leader that's navigating some sort of communication challenge or the revenue isn't growing? Where would you advise them to look first if things aren't changing with

themselves? Yeah, that's an easy one. I think that we can know ourselves better than other people, but in order to be effective with other folks, we have to be sure about where we're coming from. We have to be sure about our motivations. You know why we're wanting a particular change, right? And how we're involved in the organization, in the project, in the strategy, whatever it might be. So start with yourself to make sure that you are really being honest, you know, with your involvement in the project, whatever it might be, and then only then start engaging with others.

That probably goes back to knowing yourself, doing the personality assessments. Oh sure, yeah, understanding at what point of day you could be most effective,

sure,

if at all. Sure. Look in the mirror, right? I feel like Michael Jackson has been playing everywhere I've been going, and has we've had some side conversations about that today. But "Man in the Mirror, right, is one of his songs that is really popular, but also so simple.

Yep. But I mean, high EQ is so important in executive leadership, right? Being aware of how you present to others, you know, being aware of your own emotions, and making sure you know that you're sending the right messages, both subtle, you know, and unspoken, you know, as well as whatever you're putting in an email.

Very true. Last question for you, Greg. Okay. And I would like you to finish the sentence. Growth comes from

growth comes from challenge, confusion, adversity. Probably, I should explain some of those.

Please,

you know, I'm a big believer in confusion in education and learning. You know that if you're confused by something, you know, then it causes you to step back and look at like the bigger picture. Think about like a maze, right? So you're confused by the maze. You thought, oh, I've gone down this road before. Really, what you want to do in your mind is kind of like you know get a bird's eye view, right? And so that same thing happens in non maze, confusing environment. Something comes up, and all of a sudden you're like, oh wow, I don't expect this. You know, it causes you to kind of reorient and scan to figure out where you are in the world. You know, and then orient yourself, and you learn from that. And then with adversity and challenge, understand that you can get through something if you never challenge yourself. You know, then you never find your boundaries. You never find your limits. But also, if you do get through a challenge, you gain confidence. You know, and you gain knowledge in that. You know, so that if you're faced with another challenge, you know, you're able to face that next challenge with a little bit more confidence, right? A little bit more self-awareness about how to accomplish it, how to get through it.

Yeah,

I mean, revenue is growth, and starting with those conversations of how you can grow is how you grow. Correct.

Sure, sure.

Well, Greg, it's been a pleasure having you on the show today. How can people find you? Where can they learn more about your services and how you help associations?

I'm based out. Sacramento, but I could go anywhere. I have a website. It's my name, Greg J wilson.com I'm on LinkedIn as Greg Wilson CAE, and my blog post is on Substack, Greg wilson.substack.com

Yes, and I highly recommend to our listeners that they read it. You have some great nuggets of information, and readers can even find out more about your extracurricular hobbies, like improv.

Yeah, there was an eight-week class, and we did our final performance. I think last week.

How did it go?

It was really fun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Would you do it again?

Maybe. Okay. Maybe. Yeah.

Well, thanks for being on the show, Greg. Always a pleasure.

Yeah, it was good to be here.

You Did great. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening. We invite you to subscribe to this podcast and take our Revenue Alignment Assessment, a short strategic diagnostic for mission-driven executives. You will find everything you need at RevenueSpeaks.com, because communication isn't overhead; it's infrastructure, and in the end, revenue speaks.

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